i remember several years ago there being this snl skit about a talk show whose topic for the day was celibacy. . . i think dennis miller played the host and he had three guests, one a priest, one a nun, and the third was jon lovitz playing some dude. . .

after the first two guests talked for a bit it was jon lovitz's turn and after he had his say, dennis miller asked him, "so this celibacy thing - it's not really a choice with you, is it?". . .

nowadays whenever i hear someone such as yourself talking about celibacy i can't help but think, "oh, so she's like the nun in that skit and i'm like jon lovitz". . .

Celibacy is so much better than playing victim to a player and his antics. The douchebagitude quotient is high.

at which point i, as jon lovitz, would agree by saying, "yeah, *much* better than playing the victim. . . those darn douches!". . .

and on a totally unrelated note, as a kid when pretending to punch someone i used to use the sound effect "douche!" to emphasize my landing of a blow. . .

and when i say "as a kid" i mean i still do it to this day. . .

I imagine the reason so many people have trouble comprehending that you've chosen a celibacy lifestyle is because you're attractive, in a holy hell she's hot - I'd sever my left arm to sleep with her, kind of way. Which of course means that by uber-lib-fem-bot standards you should be sleeping with everyone possible, because its empowering...

You have the one thing many people, especially the ones whoring around won't have, which is true self confidence. You don't need the constant reassurance / ego stroking that goes along with some guy pitching woo.

Of course what the hell do I know, I'm like Jon Lovitz in that skit bloopy mentioned.

I have trouble seeing celibacy as an aim in life. An unfortunate side effect of (perhaps too) high standards, sure, but an aim or accomplishment in itself? No way. That's like having a classic Porsche and never taking it out of the garage.

"Douchebagitude?" What a great word, I have to know what that means. Is it mathematical or a character trait?

By the way, I love how you drop the D-bag, and its many, unique forms, from time to time. The way I see it, everything 80s is making a comeback, so why not that as well? I say bring back the Massengill commercials to make it a clean sweep.

That's like having a classic Porsche and never taking it out of the garage.

I have one of those in the garage, for reals. Haven't driven it in years.

"Celibate lifestyle"? I had never heard that one before, but I am a simple man with a simple mind.

If you don't want to sleep with a guy until you get to know him, that is great.

Being a normal, corn fed midwestern boy, if after dating for a while (I would say a few months at most) I wasn't getting some sort of access to the woman I was courting I would certainly start asking questions. But then again, I am hard wired that way, as are most men. There is just not much we can do about it.

"Is sex fun?" - Ummm...yes.

kinda hard to argue against it,although in the end, such common sense solutions inevitably get politicized.

years ago, i was out with some pretty girls from the office and as the drink count mounted for all of us, two of the three girls started talking about "body count"--their phrase, not mine.

I had had my fair share of pints and as one girl described her "close feelings" for what was little more than a series of friends-with-benefits connections, I made a mistake that I wont make again.

I told her the truth.

I said from the male perspective (I had first hand experience) her "closesness and warmth" equaled being able to get drunk with friends (not with her), call her up, stumble into her place, have sex and/or oral (these chicks--and many like her always make a distintion. Thanks Pres. clinton), and leave the next morning-early. I told her they'd call back within a week or two to get the process moving again, although the space between "episodes" (I used another word begining with E) might grow if they work a few more of her into the picture.

To be fair, I gave her the "R" version. She and one of the girls was put off and never really dealt with me again; word got around that i was a blunt schmuck. Another agreed with me though, and went a step further.

She said, I quote, "13-yr old boys have playboy and kleenex; 26 year olds are using me and ____ and ___ the same way."

She cut it out, is married now to a guy, theyre saving up for a house, seem to be having a blast. the other two have moved up from the bars of manhattan to east hampton, im told.

true story.

I never was any good at pitching woo. (I'm lucky I didn't get sent down to the minors.)

You have the one thing many people, especially the ones whoring around won't have, which is true self confidence. You don't need the constant reassurance / ego stroking that goes along with some guy pitching woo.

This is particularly funny to me, Phin.

Especially after my male commenters filled my sieve of an ego in the last post ;)

People saying nice things about me is so rare, I actually do enjoy it and thrive on it.

Even when it comes from the guy driving a rusty pickup truck who hollers out the window, "hello beautiful" -- I'll take it! I'm sure he meant it ;)

"Douchebagitude" is a character trait. "Douchebagnitude" is the mathematical equivalent -- and invariant under spatial and rotational transformation, I might add.

Even when it comes from the guy driving a rusty pickup truck who hollers out the window, "hello beautiful" -- I'll take it! I'm sure he meant it ;)

There's hope for me yet! ;)

Bruce... how would you feel if your daughter, sister, or mom exceeded the miles limits on their Porsches years before the final buyer put down a deposit? Think they should get the same price as for a new Porsche? Or does a "mint-in-box" item usually get a better deal than a well-worn item?

Do you think it's a good thing to raise a son to screw around?

Males of all species usually used to have to prove their mettle to the female before being granted access to mating.

Would it ever be a positive thing, while in bed, for either the husband or wife to compare the sex to a prior partner? Worse, many partners?

By definition, isn't romantic intimacy inversely proportional to variety?

As always, my unofficial Rabbi asks the best questions and makes the correct points!

Like Mox, I also have an older Porsche (early-80s 911SC) -- it usually sits under a cover in my driveway. I try to take it out for a spin at least every month, but don't always get around to it as often as I'd like. So usually when I pull the cover off, the battery is nearly dead and it needs a jump start, there are a couple of cobwebs in the interior, the two DampRids I keep inside it to prevent mildew are nearly overflowing, and it runs a little rough on initial startup for a minute or so until it gets going. If I were to let it sit like that for a year or longer, it would probably need a tow to the shop and some work to start up at all.



Which is a long way of saying, that's maybe an imperfect analogy. (But it's an old one -- see Robert Johnson's "Who been drivin' my Terraplane for you while I been gone" for reference).



As far as Aaron's comment re: past history goes, if those things have a mileage limit, I think it takes a lot to exceed them. As for the effect of prior partners on marital relations, ignorance may sometimes be bliss, but past experience may also help partners know if something isn't as good as it could be and how to make it better.



What concerns me most about someone's past history is not the sexual part (within reason, of course), but the emotional and judgment part -- do their relationship histories indicate a tendency to make good decisions about whether someone is right for them, to treat their partners well, and especially to take "commitment" (whatever that means, it seems everyone's got their own definition) seriously?



As for celibacy, I've been no Galahad in the past, but as I mature I've more and more been seeing the value in delaying sex a lot longer than I would have been happy with when younger, because I've seen firsthand how rushing intimacy (physical OR emotional -- the second more importantly than the first, but it tends to go along with it, even if it's illusory) clouds the judgment of both parties if they're still just getting to know each other.



It's actually been pretty good not having to worry about inadvertently or thoughtlessly hurting someone's feelings worse than I ever thought I might -- let alone worrying about the possibility of trouser rash or birth control mishaps (luckily never realized).



Yeah, the lack of nookie can be tough sometimes, but I'm thinking it will be a better motivator to focus on finding the right person, rather than falling into the easy trap of spending a few months here and a couple years there with a series of wrong ones.



But I don't demand a virgin; I don't really want to know my future wife's "body count"; and I'll never tell her mine. What should count is not being each other's first, but being each other's last. And having been around the block, I'm ready to find a home to come to and stay there.

Alex, that was a great comment. Thoughtful and a great response to Aaron, both.

You guys have to duke it out, because I'm seeing both sides of the argument. That's almost never the case.

Thanks for the kind word, Mox. Apologies for the length and the extra BR tags -- the paragraphs weren't separating in the preview mode. If you can edit them, you're welcome to.

I'm not looking to duke it out with Aaron, though, because he's not entirely wrong. Too much catting around when young, not to mention too many relationships gone sour (or even just a few, if they went sour enough -- I'd be wary of dating someone with a couple of rough divorces under her belt), can have an emotionally numbing effect on a person, whether that's a protective mechanism or just jadedness. Shorthand for that I guess is "baggage."

But in the real world, those of us who've made it into our mid-30s (without having been as fortunate as others who happened to meet "The One" in their early 20s) are mostly going to have a few city miles on us. Which is normal -- prolonged lack of human contact can have a warping effect on one's mind and personality just like an excess of it can. (Evidence of that premise is available at your local Star Trek convention.)

I guess it's what you are comfortable with. In HS and college, I dated more than the average number of good looking nice girls. By my choice I never had sex with any of them despite some very heavy duty making out. Probably a good idea as some got pregnant out of marriage by others. I was introduced to my sweetie in college, got married two years later, and didn't create babies until we had known each other for 5 years. After 50+ years and no straying, marriage and all the attendant benefits are wonderful.

Stick to your guns, Moxie.

A man does not value that which he acquires easily.

(First of all, I apologize for the long comment. I sometimes have a tendency to ramble :) )

I am in my 40's and while I was never extremely promiscious, I have been married 3 times and so have had several sexual partners (exact number is not important).

About a year ago, I met a young woman (33 years old) and we started dating. We had been dating a short while when she quietly confided in me that she was a virgin. I was surprised but I listened to her reasons and to her rationale as to why. When she was done, I told her that I respected her decision and I thought that it was very honorable.

She was surprised by this and proceeded to tell me stories of how some other men had reacted with varying emotions, including shock and disbelief. Some asked her what was wrong with her and at least one assumed that she had been raped and that had caused her to take this this stance (she had not been raped).

I will freely admit that at first I pushed things a little but she did not budge (and I did not push hard). Afterwards we talked about it and I began to realize and truly appreciate her views. I began to wish that I had been a little less experienced but she was very understanding.

I began to truly appreciate celibacy and what it can bring to a relationship and now that young woman and I are engaged to be married. She is the most amazing woman I have ever known and is truly beautiful inside and out. I am truly grateful that she had the foresight as a young woman that I lacked as a young man and I am looking forward to learning much more from her in the many years (and decades) to come.

"incurable trouser rash" - classic.

Even a curable trouser rash is something to be avoided, I think.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. On the one hand, I think it is indeed hinky for someone to be overly promiscuous -- grabbing someone in a bar for a one nighter, banging your coworker at the company Christmas holiday party, etc.

OTOH, while generally being conservativish and of a traditional religious background, I don't have a lot of trouble with being non-celibate, given the usual precautions against unwanted pregnancy and STDs. Sex is not only fun in the usual gonadally-centered way, it's a wonderfully fulfilling way to express your feelings for someone; it can be a profound emotional experience sharing that sort of intimacy with someone.

So, I dunno. I'm guessing our host means "celibate" as "not dating anyone seriously so not having sex". That troubles me not.

Me, I have a 1978 Mustang with a remanufactured 5.0L that I drive every single day and love it.

Unfortunately, that's not a metaphor for my previous or current sex life. =(

Dear Moxie,

You are my new heroine! Thanks for speaking up for attractive, intelligent women that are waiting till marriage.

Ruth